Man-oh-Manosphere | 15

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[Theme song]

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Welcome to Chat in the Commons,
where we tear it all down.

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One sensible conversation at a time.
I'm Natalie Blundell, I'm in the

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corporate world and also the founder
of an online women's support

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community. And I'm Elle Kamihira.
I'm a documentary producer and

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podcast host.

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Welcome everyone.
We're going to talk about men today.

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Boys are men.
I guess it's just a change up,

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because, you know,
a lot of our episodes are based

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on feminism and women's rights
and looking at everything

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through a woman's perspective.
Yeah, the focus is going to be

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on men, but we're still looking
at it through a feminist lens.

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That's that's true. Unavoidable.
I'm afraid I'm coming into the mic a

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little bit here, because secret is
when I was researching this episode,

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I had a really hard time thinking of
things positive to say about men

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and boys, and I kept defaulting
to being critical and having it

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through kind of a critical lens.
How about you? Yeah.

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You know, just so the audience knows,
we're recording this the weekend

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after the Charlie Kirk assassination.
And that is still very much like

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ongoing 24 over seven in the news.
And it's just very chilling and

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very sad.
And it's hard not to despair with

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male violence exploding like this.
Yeah, true.

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Back in episode four,
we actually said we would dedicate

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a full episode to, you know,
looking and understanding the

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men's rights movements,
but also the efforts to break in

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down the norms of, you know,
how do we raise our boys and our

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expectation for young men? Yeah.
To be better men.

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And I think everyone is aware that
masculinity and sort of norms for

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men is changing very rapidly.
But I think the sort of unknown

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here is that we don't know what
it's turning into.

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We know from where we come, more or
less, but we don't know exactly where

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we're headed in terms of masculinity.
That's so true. So true.

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And I want to let everybody know
that's listening today that tomorrow,

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November 19th, is International Men's
Day. You may not be aware of that.

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I wasn't.
This actually started back in 1999,

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in the Caribbean. Actually, yeah.
As a counter statement to

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International Women's Day.
And so is it about celebrating

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positive manhood? Yes, it is now.
It really is about celebrating

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and appreciating and the
guidance of boys and men.

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But strangely,
now it's actually sponsored and

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run by an Australian religious
charity called dads for kids.

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And they have a mission to kind of
turn the tide on Fatherlessness.

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I guess similar to like fathers
here in the US.

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Have dads be more involved basically.
Yeah.

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Which is that's a very positive
thing, I think.

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When I went researching for this
episode, I interviewed some people

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on the subject of power about
masculinities, and I'm also about

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to interview Australian researcher
Michael Flood. And oh great. So?

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So I'm kind of like immersed in
this at the moment, but I found an

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American study by the organization
at Mondo about essentially State

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of American men 2025, and I just
found it interesting to delve into

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what men are saying about themselves
and manhood and masculinity.

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And so that's kind of the angle
I'm coming from today is just like

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talking about how men themselves
are discussing this. Sure.

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And I guess this is about you
said American men.

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It is about American men.
I do think that there's so much

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overlap and commonalities across the
world between men and men. Yeah.

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Although there are some things that
are uniquely American for sure. Okay.

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And so what did men have to say
about themselves? I'm curious.

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They kind of created,
like for headlines as to like the

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things that are top of mind of men.
And so those things were.

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And I'll just rattle them off the
four of them, and then we can

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break it down and talk about it.
But one of them were economic

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anxiety.
And your role as provider, that that

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is just kind of being challenged.
And there's insecurity about that and

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nervousness about that and so on.
So that's the role as provider

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is kind of on the move.
The second one is that masculinity as

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a norm is becoming more restrictive.
So like the man box as they call it,

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is becoming more and more sort of
rigid as to what you're supposed to

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be or not be. And it's kind of rigid.
On emotional stoicism, dominance and

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self-reliance that those things are
kind of like ruling the man box. Hmm.

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That surprises me a bit,
because I think that it's been

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rigid from the beginning.
For a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But we can come back to that.
And so and then number three is that

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men feel isolated and pessimistic,
and then that there is a good deal of

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depression and loneliness issues.
Are you had to bring up male

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loneliness, didn't you? Yeah.
You know, the issue of the male

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loneliness epidemic is like all over,
you know, social media.

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And but I think it's worth talking
about because I think there are

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a lot of aspects to lonely men.
Lonely, lonely men. Okay. Sorry.

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We're being positive about men.
I'm so sorry. Yeah. Get it together.

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And the fourth sort of headliners.
Too much time online.

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And so it's about all of the
messages and all of the effects

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of boys and men spending an
awful lot of time online.

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If this was a bar chart for
those four items.

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I would say that one would be
skyrocketing. Yes.

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So they had done this survey of
men about what being a man is dot,

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dot, dot.
And so the top one was being

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providing for my family.
But then there was also a sort

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of descending list from that.
What being a man means.

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And I think it's just so interesting.
I am curious though, real quick,

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is it because women are being
also joint providers in the home?

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Is it shaming them in some way?
I think it's making the role of

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provider more complex.
I think they can no longer claim

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it for themselves because,
you know, 70% of mothers work and.

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You know, a majority of households
are two incomes, so they can't

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carry that mantle any longer.
And I think it provided them

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with a lot of pride,
but also a lot of power that.

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Yes. They no longer have. Yeah.
It was their complete identity,

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the breadwinner.
We talked about this in endless work.

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And in a sense like that is one
thing that women have less of.

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I don't think our our like,
shame and pride is ass bound up

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in the earning money pressure as
men are. Definitely not.

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You and I have been single
mothers for a long time, raising

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our children as single parents,
where we are head of household,

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where we are the sole earner for
the their family. Obviously. Yes.

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I wanted to make sure I had that
income.

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It was more just logistics and,
you know, making sure I can pay the

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rent and stay in the house type of
thing. But it wasn't my identity.

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It wasn't who I was as a woman.
My job.

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Although economic independence
from men. That's a big one.

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Yes, yes. Yes, definitely.
So that's at the top of the list of

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what being a man is for them, you
know. So I think that says so much.

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But below that is being a friend,
being strong, managing conflict

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with communication, giving advice.
Fatherhood is really high up.

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Sharing care,
work and housework is important.

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Having a salaried job, being in
charge, being a winner, having a

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partner wife and then it goes on.
But you know,

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that gives you a picture.
Yeah, A lot of men in this study

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were frustrated with that.
The American dream is out of reach.

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They feel like, you know, no matter
how hard they work, you know,

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a good portion of men can't excel.
And, you know, you're stuck in lower

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pay jobs or aren't able to get the
things for the money that you use

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to get like a house and education
for your children and so forth.

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So I think there's a lot of
economic anxiety over that too.

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Like the jobs and the money that
men are able to make doesn't

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provide them with status and
power the way it used to.

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I mean,
decades ago you would exit college,

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which was not that expensive.
You know, everyone kind of went

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to college and it was affordable.
And then you came out and most people

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were getting married and buying a
house. Yeah. In their early 20s.

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You can't do that anymore.
You've got even close of debt,

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years of student debt, It,
and most college grads moved back in

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with one of their parents because
it's so expensive. I mean, inflation.

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Again, they're talking about the
Fed's going to raise the rates again.

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We're not out of this economic
anxious world that we're living

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in right now.
Know the meaning and purpose that

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men found in being able to have the
power to buy a house and having so

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much status through employment.
I think the fact that that's not

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possible anymore is taking a lot
of meaning and a lot of purpose

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out of life for men.
Yes, there's a lot weighing on that.

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So the whole masculinity is
becoming more restrictive.

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And, you know,
we were talking about this before

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when you and I were discussing
this episode and we were saying,

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how were Gen Xers grew up in the
70s 80s and how gender bending.

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The culture was we had all kinds
of pop culture icons that were

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not like Prince and David Bowie
and Annie Lennox and.

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Yeah, no, we were making progress
back then, like in the late 60s and

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then the 70s, heading into the 80s.
Then it was like Wolf of Wall

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Street type of mentality.
Capitalism like,

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became so strong and so influential.
Getting rid of the hippie type

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emotional man, more sensitive man.
And suddenly the definition of

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manhood changed in the 80s, 90s.
And now it's been shifting again.

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And is it a backlash?
Is this a backlash?

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Men on men on judging their manhood?
Yeah, I mean, domination came into

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vogue so hard again from that,
you know, from Woody Allen,

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Dustin Hoffman and all these,
like, anti sexy, you know. Yes.

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Male icons to Schwarzenegger and
Clint Eastwood.

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It really did a complete U-turn
away from a softer, more socially

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and emotionally attuned man.
And all of a sudden that was

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like out the window.
And now it's not just regressing, but

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the beliefs that are being espoused
are so reactionary and so about

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having power and control over women.
I guess historians will look at this

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and see the cyclical nature to it.

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And then the third issue,
which is that men feel isolated

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and pessimistic about their
romantic prospects in particular.

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Mhm mhm. Mhm mhm. Yeah.
Let's talk about the male

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loneliness epidemic.
I think my knee jerk reaction when I

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hear that is self-inflicted much.
Yeah.

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To insist on being dominating and
kind of having a grandiose image of

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manhood and yourself isn't going
to make you part of humanity.

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To hold yourself above is not
the way to get an isolated.

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I think for me, the whole male
loneliness is it's like a response

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and a reaction to women's awakening.
The fact that women have woken

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up and said, no,
we're not going to put up with that.

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You don't meet the level or standard.
That's important to me and I'm going

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to say no. So we have boundaries.
And to me it feels like a

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response to that.
And they're like,

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but you have to take care of us.
You have to want us as romantic

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partners. They don't like that.
We're saying no.

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And I don't think they like that.
They're being held accountable

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in some sense,
to cry loneliness is to fail,

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to take accountability for their
own part in their own alienation.

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Yeah, it's basically implying that
the women have to be more caring

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and help them out of this hole.
It's almost like they're blaming us,

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and we've got to fix the problem,
too.

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Yeah, and I think a lot of women
are just saying no to that, too.

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Yeah, yeah. Take a good look.
Hold the mirror up. Be accountable.

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Be open and willing to change
your ways.

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Understand why we're saying now
all of this.

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Do the work to become more
emotionally intelligent,

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emotionally attuned, relational.
Like Terry Real says, you know,

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he's this famous psychotherapist
who works with men and couples on,

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you know, male depression and a
whole lot of other subjects.

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He works with men to become more
relational,

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and I think that is what it is about.
There's a clip of a woman on

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TikTok who talks about male
alexithymia and alexithymia.

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Yeah, I've never heard of that.
It is the inability to name your

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feelings, to articulate your
feelings. Can we listen to that?

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Oh, please play that. So spot on.
Yeah. Here is Katie Hanlon.

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Alexithymia is a psychological
term for not being able to name

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or talk about your emotions.
This doesn't mean you don't feel

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the emotion.
Men feel the emotion,

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and they just don't know how to talk
about it or how to garner empathy

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from each other about said emotion.
That labor doesn't just go away.

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It gets passed on to us.
We deal with your emotions.

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You're the lack of ability that
you have to regulate yourself.

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Our households live and die by
your insecurities. What?

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We're allowed to talk about,
all of these conversations we're

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having about division of labor,
um, emotional labor, mental load,

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motherhood versus fatherhood.
None of this fucking matters if

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we're not addressing the problem
underneath, which is the fact that

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men can't deal with their emotions,
they can't label them,

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they can't talk about them.
And we are dying early. Wow.

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I now have a new word like I'm
going to start using that.

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00:17:28,860 --> 00:17:33,180
I never knew that that was a thing.
And I think it's bigger than

217
00:17:33,340 --> 00:17:36,420
what we understand.
We're intensely social animals.

218
00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:41,970
We communicate with words in
other ways. You can't not sense.

219
00:17:41,970 --> 00:17:48,370
You can't not have emotions. Mhm.
There's no doubt that women have been

220
00:17:48,370 --> 00:17:53,330
evolving and becoming more liberated.
And I think men are failing to

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00:17:53,370 --> 00:17:56,730
keep up with us.
And we're not waiting behind

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00:17:56,770 --> 00:18:00,330
anymore for men.
We're just kind of moving on. Yeah.

223
00:18:00,370 --> 00:18:05,930
So in that sense, like the only
path left for men, I think, is to

224
00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:12,650
follow women's lead and. Agree 100%.
And get more relational. Yes.

225
00:18:12,650 --> 00:18:15,130
But the other thing about the
isolation thing is,

226
00:18:15,130 --> 00:18:21,130
like we're apparently busy feeling
a lot of sympathy for lonely men,

227
00:18:21,130 --> 00:18:25,530
but women are isolated also.
They complain about it as well.

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00:18:25,650 --> 00:18:30,610
There are high numbers of women
who are depressed and isolated

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00:18:30,610 --> 00:18:33,850
and despairing in lots of ways.
But we're not talking about that

230
00:18:33,850 --> 00:18:38,680
because we accept that women suffer.
That's so true.

231
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,480
Should we start the women's
loneliness epidemic? Yeah.

232
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:48,080
Although I think I think the things
that make women feel lonely and

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isolated and despairing are not the
same as what makes men feel lonely,

234
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:58,800
for sure. I.e. the great divorce.
If we were happy and fulfilled

235
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,720
and thriving in marriages,
for example, then we wouldn't

236
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,400
have the great divorce, would we?

237
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,360
So the big one number for.
Too much. Time online.

238
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,680
So many thoughts about this.
We're all as humanity spending

239
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,160
too much time online.
But what are the consequences?

240
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,600
And I think we're really seeing
that with a generation that has

241
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:43,030
grown up online. Yeah.
This generation now born like 2007,

242
00:19:43,670 --> 00:19:49,190
That generation. Yeah.
They're becoming adults now.

243
00:19:49,470 --> 00:19:54,430
Yeah. And it's kind of unfolding.
Too much time online and also

244
00:19:54,910 --> 00:20:01,350
anti-women or misogynist messages
being shared online, and where boys

245
00:20:01,350 --> 00:20:08,350
and young men and even older men
are getting fed a diet of hardened,

246
00:20:08,390 --> 00:20:14,030
sort of misogynistic messages,
anti-feminist, not to speak of

247
00:20:14,030 --> 00:20:18,670
pornography, I considered
pornography misogynist propaganda.

248
00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:26,270
It is the media that tells men who
consume it that women are worthless

249
00:20:26,270 --> 00:20:32,430
and can be used for their bodies and
being sexually degraded and abused.

250
00:20:32,430 --> 00:20:38,500
And so if men, young men and old.
Both are constantly fed

251
00:20:38,740 --> 00:20:43,660
misogynist messages.
That's not going to go anywhere.

252
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:46,660
Good.
No, and it isn't going anywhere good.

253
00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:51,140
No. And it's.
The thing is, if for any new parents,

254
00:20:51,220 --> 00:20:54,020
I'm just worried for them.
I'm worried about my kids having

255
00:20:54,020 --> 00:20:57,900
children because they're not
just going to be the only ones

256
00:20:57,900 --> 00:21:01,660
raising that child.
The internet's going to be

257
00:21:01,660 --> 00:21:06,620
raising the child.
And it does remind me of a book

258
00:21:06,620 --> 00:21:11,060
from 2002 by James Steyer called
The Other Parent.

259
00:21:11,420 --> 00:21:15,140
And I remember reading that,
and it was basically like,

260
00:21:15,140 --> 00:21:19,660
there's a stranger in your house
that your children are being

261
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:25,900
bombarded with, like images of sex
and commercialism and violence.

262
00:21:25,940 --> 00:21:31,260
But this was through TV.
This was through the movies and

263
00:21:31,260 --> 00:21:36,130
music and computer games.
We didn't know, you know,

264
00:21:36,170 --> 00:21:39,490
really. Where that was headed?
Yeah. Where that was headed.

265
00:21:39,490 --> 00:21:44,010
That was a real canary in the
coal mine because TV.

266
00:21:44,050 --> 00:21:47,170
That would be a dream right now
if it was just TV.

267
00:21:47,530 --> 00:21:50,930
Yeah, because they're not connected
to real people in real time.

268
00:21:50,970 --> 00:21:55,130
Answering them back.
You've got this huge community

269
00:21:55,130 --> 00:21:59,810
out there of people that have
your child's attention, and they

270
00:21:59,810 --> 00:22:05,810
are raising them and arguably are
having more influence on your child

271
00:22:05,810 --> 00:22:10,210
than you are. And that's scary.
Yeah, it absolutely is.

272
00:22:10,210 --> 00:22:16,210
And in this study that we were
referencing before, they looked into

273
00:22:16,210 --> 00:22:22,850
what are the narratives that men
and boys are hearing online and in

274
00:22:22,850 --> 00:22:29,010
a 2024 study on the manosphere.
These are the messages that men

275
00:22:29,010 --> 00:22:32,850
are picking up.
Men have it harder than women when

276
00:22:32,850 --> 00:22:37,160
it comes to new opportunities.
Men can have their reputation

277
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,400
destroyed just for speaking
their minds these days.

278
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,080
Things are generally better when
men bring in money and women take

279
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,240
care of the home and the kids.
So very regressive.

280
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:52,400
You know, feminism is about
favoring women over men.

281
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:58,560
61% of men believe that you must
be an alpha male these days.

282
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,320
To get a partner is a popular belief.
Oh, gosh.

283
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,960
More masculine energy is needed
in the workplace.

284
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,080
Another really popular belief.
Unreal.

285
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,480
And the kind of winner takes all.
For one group to succeed,

286
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,840
one has to lose. Uh, yeah.
And we're seeing that divisiveness.

287
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,880
And pick a side.
And these online spaces are

288
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,680
radicalizing young men.
It's not just giving them ideas.

289
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:34,120
It's cult like. It's signing them up.
I think the manosphere also believes

290
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:36,960
that men are the oppressed class.
Yes.

291
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,080
And they bond through this kind
of shared misogynistic and

292
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,480
racist attitude.
That there is a certain, like

293
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:51,000
aggrieved entitlement, that they're
feeling kind of righteously angry,

294
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,840
that things have are being taken away
from them that belong to them. Right.

295
00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:01,440
There's some kind of anxiety around
the fact that they perceive their

296
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:06,720
losses in social status. Yes.
In fact,

297
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:12,000
there's I came across this clip.
Her handle is T Sierra,

298
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,800
author on TikTok.
She's talking about there was an

299
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,560
article in New York Times that
talked about that.

300
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:26,040
White men are getting a lot less
accolades in literature these days.

301
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,360
They're not getting picked for
literary prizes anymore.

302
00:24:30,750 --> 00:24:35,350
And so she went looking.
She went researching into like the

303
00:24:35,350 --> 00:24:39,710
top. Kind of literary process.
And she found it to be entirely

304
00:24:39,710 --> 00:24:42,710
untrue.
Oh, in fact, we can just hear the

305
00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:45,910
clip and she tells the story.
Sorry, where are the biggest

306
00:24:45,910 --> 00:24:50,750
prizes in English literature?
Like none of these articles

307
00:24:50,750 --> 00:24:56,030
published in the last six months
mention even mention the Pulitzer

308
00:24:56,030 --> 00:25:00,030
in the US or the Booker in the UK.
So I went and looked at the last

309
00:25:00,030 --> 00:25:02,630
decade of winners and it became very
clear why they don't mention it.

310
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:06,390
It's because a completely,
it completely and utterly undermines

311
00:25:06,430 --> 00:25:10,070
this idea that the men are vanishing,
that they aren't getting the awards.

312
00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:12,510
In the last ten years,
men have won the Pulitzer.

313
00:25:12,550 --> 00:25:17,590
75% of the time, 75% of the time.
Okay, straight white men have

314
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:22,510
won it 25% of the time,
which is equal to the total number of

315
00:25:22,510 --> 00:25:26,990
women who have won, all women who
have won it in the last ten years.

316
00:25:27,110 --> 00:25:30,460
No women of color won the prize
in the last decade.

317
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:32,980
The Booker was an itty bitty bit
more diverse.

318
00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:36,380
Women of color tied one year,
which meant that men.

319
00:25:36,420 --> 00:25:40,700
Won about 70% of the time.
So much for disappearing.

320
00:25:41,340 --> 00:25:47,780
And it meant that straight white
men won 25% of the time,

321
00:25:47,860 --> 00:25:50,660
which is the same number as
white women, the same the same

322
00:25:50,660 --> 00:25:54,860
number of times as white women.
So not so much. Not vanishing.

323
00:25:54,860 --> 00:26:00,180
No men are dominating in that
market in those prizes.

324
00:26:00,180 --> 00:26:05,660
If anything, it seems to me to
show bias for prizes toward men.

325
00:26:05,700 --> 00:26:08,980
I think this is an example of
when you're used to everything

326
00:26:08,980 --> 00:26:11,140
looking like you.
Even the slightest change can feel

327
00:26:11,140 --> 00:26:15,620
like an extinction level event can
feel like a lack of representation.

328
00:26:15,820 --> 00:26:19,260
You know, it's interesting to
think that you have this like,

329
00:26:19,300 --> 00:26:24,020
anger out there in men that's saying
things are being taken away from us

330
00:26:24,020 --> 00:26:28,450
or we're not getting the flowers that
we deserve. And it was baseless.

331
00:26:28,450 --> 00:26:32,170
Completely baseless. Yeah.
I mean, that's the thing about

332
00:26:32,170 --> 00:26:35,650
everything on the internet, too.
It's just clickbait or they

333
00:26:35,690 --> 00:26:39,450
sensationalize things.
Maybe there's an element of truth

334
00:26:39,450 --> 00:26:44,730
and then they run with it and
very quickly that gains traction.

335
00:26:44,730 --> 00:26:47,970
And it's based on nothing.
And that's concerning.

336
00:27:00,130 --> 00:27:05,010
These manosphere online groups I
wanted to go through a few of them,

337
00:27:05,050 --> 00:27:08,050
talk about them.
So obviously we have the incels.

338
00:27:08,090 --> 00:27:14,770
Yeah. Meaning involuntarily celibate.
And they really blame women and

339
00:27:14,770 --> 00:27:19,650
society for finding it difficult
to enter romantic relationships.

340
00:27:19,690 --> 00:27:22,730
Yeah. They blame.
They have this whole system of

341
00:27:22,730 --> 00:27:25,210
beliefs that's very,
very superficial.

342
00:27:25,250 --> 00:27:30,040
Believes that only, like top percent
of males get women and that they're

343
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,600
not good looking enough or rich
enough or fit enough to get women,

344
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:39,400
and they're like, embittered over it.
Yeah, they're all grouping together

345
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,280
online and complaining about this.
And again, that sparks kind of a

346
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:50,520
hatred and misogynistic attitude.
In fact, we have plenty of violent

347
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:55,360
episodes with incels who have
committed mass murder in the name of.

348
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,360
Yeah, there are other manosphere
online groups.

349
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:04,480
There's the pickup artists pose,
and they attempt to really kind of

350
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:10,120
seduce women through manipulation.
But it's all like a game.

351
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:17,520
It's just to be the more powerful
sex and string women along.

352
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:23,160
To, like, gamify relationships
with women in this way, to think

353
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:31,510
that it's all cynical, cruel game.
If you think that is going to be

354
00:28:31,510 --> 00:28:36,950
a place where men thrive,
where are you going with that?

355
00:28:36,990 --> 00:28:42,030
Well, they end up leading into
men's rights activists, the MRAs

356
00:28:42,030 --> 00:28:47,190
and the fathers rights activists.
Those are two very powerful and

357
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:50,510
influential groups.
I think this is a dead end road,

358
00:28:50,510 --> 00:28:54,830
man. Yeah.
To, like, hang on to your, like,

359
00:28:54,870 --> 00:28:59,950
superiority and entitlements and
insist on dominating women.

360
00:28:59,950 --> 00:29:02,910
It's just not going to end well.
Yeah, I don't want to ignore the

361
00:29:02,910 --> 00:29:06,550
other group called the men going
their own way. Groups. Oh, sure.

362
00:29:06,590 --> 00:29:12,870
So they are centering women in a
response to feminism and the way

363
00:29:12,910 --> 00:29:17,630
feminism is centering men.
So men going their own way.

364
00:29:17,710 --> 00:29:21,150
Lots of online chat groups about
that.

365
00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:25,460
I really think what's missing,
and maybe it's not missing. You know.

366
00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:32,180
I do know many, both men and women,
who are really working towards a

367
00:29:32,180 --> 00:29:38,740
positive vision for boys and men.
And that's what's needed here,

368
00:29:38,740 --> 00:29:46,220
is that men who have a vision of
a more positive, open,

369
00:29:46,420 --> 00:29:52,660
emotionally intelligent manhood.
Why can't those men, those healthy,

370
00:29:52,660 --> 00:29:58,260
balanced, good role model men,
be the ones that are soaring in

371
00:29:58,260 --> 00:30:03,460
the news and everywhere?
Why does it have to be the Nick

372
00:30:03,460 --> 00:30:06,940
Fonterra's the Charlie Kirks,
the Andrew Tay?

373
00:30:06,980 --> 00:30:12,420
Obviously Charlie Kirk's deceased
now. Why did they have a wider reach?

374
00:30:12,940 --> 00:30:17,580
You know these influencers,
they're young, like they started

375
00:30:17,580 --> 00:30:22,340
in their 20s, all of them.
And were able to capture

376
00:30:23,020 --> 00:30:27,380
Literally a sitting,
waiting audience of young men who

377
00:30:27,380 --> 00:30:32,540
were looking for a role model.
And personally,

378
00:30:32,540 --> 00:30:37,020
I think Andrew Tate is the least
of our problems because some of

379
00:30:37,020 --> 00:30:41,260
these kind of either alt right
or far right white nationalists,

380
00:30:41,540 --> 00:30:46,980
this movement, they are very
influential and honestly playing

381
00:30:46,980 --> 00:30:51,940
a significant role in moving like
this political culture to being

382
00:30:51,940 --> 00:30:55,700
more radical and more violent.
The whole thing about violence, I

383
00:30:55,700 --> 00:31:00,940
feel in some sense like it's a water
we all swim in in America at least.

384
00:31:01,020 --> 00:31:04,100
I went to see a movie the other day.
I went to see Naked Gun,

385
00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:09,620
but I sat through, you know,
as you do 15 minutes or more of the

386
00:31:09,620 --> 00:31:15,700
trailers, and it was an assault,
one trailer after the other,

387
00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:20,620
with big muscly guy of this flavor
of that flavor they all, like,

388
00:31:20,660 --> 00:31:25,250
blurred together to me with big guns,
big explosions.

389
00:31:25,250 --> 00:31:32,050
It was just 20 minutes of absolute
carnage and also at the same time,

390
00:31:32,210 --> 00:31:36,650
male worship.
So this is the diet,

391
00:31:36,690 --> 00:31:40,290
this is the media diet.
And so I think there's a lot of

392
00:31:40,290 --> 00:31:45,810
responsibility on Hollywood.
This is what we're fed.

393
00:31:45,930 --> 00:31:49,650
Yeah, exactly.
We have had decades and decades

394
00:31:49,650 --> 00:31:57,130
and decades of this, of Hollywood
showing us that all problems get

395
00:31:57,170 --> 00:32:02,450
resolved with violence and guns.
And then you win the woman.

396
00:32:02,450 --> 00:32:05,730
And then you win the woman.
We have to have a complete

397
00:32:05,730 --> 00:32:10,650
paradigm shift in all of this.
Something major has to change.

398
00:32:11,050 --> 00:32:15,490
When are we going to serve our
children and our young adults,

399
00:32:15,570 --> 00:32:22,040
our young men, and help them lead a
more fulfilling and save for life.

400
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:28,880
Make the case that this is not
good for men either.

401
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:36,240
This is a violent hierarchical
system where we all lose.

402
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,480
It's not just women.
You all lose out on being a

403
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:44,520
human being by this patriarchy.
That would be the paradigm shift

404
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:50,160
when men under patriarchy have
that realization and see that,

405
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,320
and that has to change from within.
But, you know, funny enough,

406
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:59,040
in this study,
one of the top things that gave men

407
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:05,120
meaning and purpose was marriage.
Being in a relationship with the

408
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:10,200
woman, or being able to be in a
relationship with a woman, and also

409
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,960
fatherhood. So it's very paradoxical.
You want to dominate.

410
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,720
You want to be on top.
You want to rule everybody,

411
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,470
but you also your top wishes in
life or the things that give you

412
00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:28,430
meaning are relationships.
Your intimate connection with a

413
00:33:28,430 --> 00:33:34,510
partner and having a family and
children and devote yourself to

414
00:33:34,550 --> 00:33:37,990
fatherhood.
Yes, yes, actually, NBC had a

415
00:33:37,990 --> 00:33:42,950
little clip about the differences
and the views of what was top of

416
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:46,870
mind and most meaningful for the
difference between men and women.

417
00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:50,670
And it was very different.
And men had the marriage and the

418
00:33:50,670 --> 00:33:55,470
children up right up top.
Gen Z men under 30 who voted for

419
00:33:55,470 --> 00:33:57,550
Donald Trump,
what were they most likely to

420
00:33:57,550 --> 00:34:02,430
say makes for a successful life?
Having children number one women.

421
00:34:02,430 --> 00:34:05,390
Gen Z voted for Kamala Harris.
Where's have it? Wow.

422
00:34:05,510 --> 00:34:08,870
All the way down here at the bottom.
Couldn't be more opposite.

423
00:34:08,870 --> 00:34:12,070
Second to last for women who voted
for Harris. Was being married.

424
00:34:12,110 --> 00:34:15,430
Being married. Look at this.
Near the top of the list for men

425
00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:17,870
who voted for Donald Trump.
Another huge difference.

426
00:34:17,910 --> 00:34:21,980
A very common answer for Gen Z.
Women who voted for Harris was having

427
00:34:21,980 --> 00:34:25,500
emotional stability for Gen Z,
men who voted for Donald Trump.

428
00:34:25,540 --> 00:34:28,380
You got to go all the way to the
bottom to find that one.

429
00:34:28,420 --> 00:34:31,900
These are some core basic questions
about how people think about life.

430
00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:35,980
And you can see here this rising
generation in this country very

431
00:34:36,020 --> 00:34:41,860
far apart.
I think most men understand that

432
00:34:41,860 --> 00:34:46,820
the solution is in intimate
connection and relationships,

433
00:34:46,980 --> 00:34:53,260
even if they aren't able to construct
a world or deconstruct masculinity

434
00:34:53,260 --> 00:34:59,460
in order to access those vital,
vital relationships and connections.

435
00:35:13,140 --> 00:35:16,860
So the fifth item was violence,
right? Yes.

436
00:35:16,860 --> 00:35:19,690
The fifth item was violence.
But of course it's like it's so

437
00:35:19,690 --> 00:35:22,570
much bigger.
I look at this like latest

438
00:35:22,570 --> 00:35:28,530
disaster with the Charlie Kirk
assassination and another gun

439
00:35:28,530 --> 00:35:34,610
control conversation back to that,
which is so the the refrain in

440
00:35:34,610 --> 00:35:38,130
America, whenever something like
this happens and I feel like it's

441
00:35:38,130 --> 00:35:44,970
always turns into this virulent
right left discussion and no one

442
00:35:44,970 --> 00:35:50,610
ever talks about male violence.
We just stop pointing fingers, adding

443
00:35:50,610 --> 00:35:55,050
left or right or mental health.
They'll always throw that one in

444
00:35:55,090 --> 00:35:58,610
there. Yeah.
Then we circle the drain until the

445
00:35:58,610 --> 00:36:02,930
next big event, or the next mass
shooting, or the next assassination.

446
00:36:02,930 --> 00:36:07,330
And then we we react again to it,
you know, in the same way.

447
00:36:07,650 --> 00:36:10,810
Madness, madness, madness,
madness. Yeah.

448
00:36:10,810 --> 00:36:15,650
But you're saying as item five of
this survey that men recognize

449
00:36:15,650 --> 00:36:20,840
Knives. This they're saying.
This is one of the issues of the

450
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,040
problem with masculinity and the
struggles of men.

451
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,960
So they're aware of their violence.
Sure.

452
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,920
And they're also aware in an
American context.

453
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,880
You know,
they're aware of firearms and guns

454
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,280
in connection with male violence.
And, of course, you know, just

455
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:43,880
because men know that violence is a
problem doesn't mean that they are

456
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:52,040
rolling up their sleeves to solve it.
No, it reminds me of the essay by

457
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:58,320
Michael Kaufman on the triad of men's
violence that violence against women

458
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:04,280
is connected to violence against
other men, which is connected to

459
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:09,200
violence against themselves. Yeah.
As in, like suicide or turning

460
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,400
that violence inwards.
They're in a triangle together.

461
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:18,720
And I would love to actually
play a clip from Jackson Katz.

462
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,600
I love him, I think he's right on.
Yeah, he's really kind of

463
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:29,200
explaining about this violence that
men experience from other men,

464
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:33,760
leading them to have these issues.
I made the connections between

465
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,920
all these forms of violence,
and feminists have been making

466
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,040
these connections, even though
centering women's and girls

467
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,080
experience is critical, obviously.
And it's a it's the it's the

468
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,280
central feminist project.
It's it's broader than that.

469
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,120
And so the reason why I'm saying
this is if we want to talk about

470
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,360
building male out, you know,
men getting men to start standing

471
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,480
with women and feminists,
if you say to them, you know what?

472
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,720
Feminists have been talking
about this for decades.

473
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:00,680
The feminists care about men's
violence against men.

474
00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:03,200
Feminists care about boys,
for example, growing up in homes

475
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,360
where their father abuses their
mother and traumatizing the kids.

476
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,840
You know how many boys and men
have been victims?

477
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,280
Like how many boys and men's
mothers have been murdered by

478
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,790
their fathers or their mothers
boyfriends and the trauma,

479
00:38:14,830 --> 00:38:18,710
the incredible loss and sadness.
How many men, by the way?

480
00:38:18,750 --> 00:38:21,590
Not just boys, but how many
adult men, myself included,

481
00:38:21,590 --> 00:38:24,310
have women in our lives who have been
victims of other men's violence?

482
00:38:24,350 --> 00:38:28,470
I mean, the idea that somehow
it's anti male to challenge men's

483
00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:32,350
violence and to try to change
systemic practices around, you know,

484
00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:35,470
sexism, that somehow it's anti male.
It's just to me it's so

485
00:38:35,510 --> 00:38:38,190
intellectually dishonest and
disingenuous.

486
00:38:38,750 --> 00:38:43,150
You can't talk about the
violence we're seeing out here

487
00:38:43,150 --> 00:38:47,270
all around us without talking
about the normalization of it.

488
00:38:47,350 --> 00:38:50,590
We're watching a genocide on our
social media.

489
00:38:50,590 --> 00:38:56,870
We're watching all kinds of really
horrific, isolated and patterned

490
00:38:56,870 --> 00:39:03,270
events, mass and individual
violence on our phones, which has a

491
00:39:03,270 --> 00:39:07,830
normalizing effect on all of us.
Well, we're not built either to

492
00:39:07,870 --> 00:39:12,740
process any of that as human beings.
We're not wired for it like

493
00:39:12,740 --> 00:39:16,820
we're really not.
Know and our children are seeing

494
00:39:16,820 --> 00:39:20,100
this stuff real time.
Also, as long as they have a

495
00:39:20,100 --> 00:39:26,500
smartphone in their hand.
So many people, young people saw

496
00:39:26,820 --> 00:39:31,020
the clip of Charlie Kirk before
it started getting censored.

497
00:39:31,060 --> 00:39:35,500
That started going around the
internet pretty quickly and there was

498
00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:39,100
no protection against seeing that,
and that has an impact.

499
00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:43,340
We don't know how to handle a
death like that before our eyes.

500
00:39:43,460 --> 00:39:48,060
Know and just again, to,
you know, to remind ourselves.

501
00:39:48,100 --> 00:39:51,740
Human beings are wired for
intimate connection.

502
00:39:51,860 --> 00:39:59,260
We are intensely social creatures
that survive and thrive only when

503
00:39:59,260 --> 00:40:05,460
we're connected to other people.
And we have these intricate care

504
00:40:05,460 --> 00:40:12,770
structures in our brains and in
our bodies that Require nurturing,

505
00:40:12,770 --> 00:40:19,530
that require care, that require
other people to care for us.

506
00:40:19,530 --> 00:40:27,930
And the shock to the human system of
like seeing this kind of brutality.

507
00:40:27,970 --> 00:40:32,250
You really can't overestimate
how damaging it is.

508
00:40:32,290 --> 00:40:38,490
So this cycle, I think the cycle of
violence, if young boys are being

509
00:40:39,170 --> 00:40:43,890
influenced online or they saw and
witnessed violence as a child,

510
00:40:43,970 --> 00:40:50,010
then they become the perpetrator
of violence as they are older and

511
00:40:50,010 --> 00:40:53,970
then their children see it and
then they do it. When does it end?

512
00:40:54,010 --> 00:40:57,770
What stops this cycle from
continuing?

513
00:40:58,050 --> 00:41:05,930
Yeah, again, I think the remedy for
this is to connect men to other

514
00:41:05,930 --> 00:41:11,840
humans, to bring them into community,
bring them into family,

515
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,920
bring them into relationship,
into intimate connection with

516
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:21,400
all of the people around them.
We can't afford to have

517
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,040
alienated men.
Some of it is self-inflicted

518
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,240
alienation.
If you insist on dominating everyone,

519
00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:32,680
or you insist that you are better
than everyone, or you have the

520
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,440
right to control other people,
than you are going to be lonely.

521
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:44,000
And so I think men somehow need
to come around to that.

522
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,360
They need to approach other
human beings, some life,

523
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,400
maybe with more humility.
Yeah, we need a mass awakening

524
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:57,360
for men. For sure, for sure.
But I also do think as masculinity is

525
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,920
in a place where it's being redefined
and deconstructed and all of that,

526
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:06,400
I do think it's an opportunity for
male leaders and for men in general,

527
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:12,390
to reshape what it means to be man,
reshape purpose, reshape meaning,

528
00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:17,190
and do the hard work,
the emotional work that's needed to

529
00:42:17,430 --> 00:42:20,630
build back healthy, so to speak.
Yeah, and they've really got to have

530
00:42:20,630 --> 00:42:27,070
the courage to go against the grain,
to know that they're not going to fit

531
00:42:27,070 --> 00:42:34,070
in, but they would be able to find
a sense of belonging if they do.

532
00:42:34,670 --> 00:42:37,950
Actually,
Brené Brown has a great piece on

533
00:42:37,950 --> 00:42:42,270
just understanding the difference
between belonging and fitting in.

534
00:42:42,350 --> 00:42:46,270
I was so shocked to learn in the
research that the opposite of

535
00:42:46,270 --> 00:42:50,150
belonging is fitting in,
because fitting in is assessing

536
00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:52,830
a group of people and thinking,
who do I need to be?

537
00:42:52,870 --> 00:42:54,350
What do I need to say?
What do I need to wear?

538
00:42:54,350 --> 00:42:57,230
How do I need to act?
And changing who you are and

539
00:42:57,230 --> 00:43:00,750
true belonging never asks us to
change who we are.

540
00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:05,990
It demands that we be who we are.
Because if we if we if we fit in.

541
00:43:07,230 --> 00:43:10,980
Because how we've changed ourselves.
That's not belonging.

542
00:43:12,340 --> 00:43:15,180
That's not belonging.
Because you betrayed yourself

543
00:43:16,220 --> 00:43:19,180
for other people.
And that's not sustainable.

544
00:43:19,580 --> 00:43:21,740
That is such an important
distinction.

545
00:43:21,780 --> 00:43:26,980
The conforming versus belonging.
And if you go back to talking about

546
00:43:26,980 --> 00:43:30,860
what we were talking about with
boys spending too much time online

547
00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:36,700
and having that influence, they're
looking to fit in somewhere, which

548
00:43:36,700 --> 00:43:42,060
is not the sense of who they are.
You're not going within and their

549
00:43:42,060 --> 00:43:47,380
physical community around them.
Their influences around them in

550
00:43:47,380 --> 00:43:52,220
real life, not online to have them
find that sense of belonging.

551
00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:57,660
They're changing themselves to
fit in. And so it's the opposite.

552
00:43:57,660 --> 00:44:03,260
And it I think it's leaving them
fragile and vulnerable. Absolutely.

553
00:44:03,260 --> 00:44:08,660
And perhaps they are doing
Violent acts or mass shootings.

554
00:44:08,700 --> 00:44:12,460
I mean, you can't.
It's not sustainable. As Brené says.

555
00:44:12,620 --> 00:44:15,860
It reminds me of something.
This interview with Michael

556
00:44:15,860 --> 00:44:18,780
Conroy that I did.
That was a great interview,

557
00:44:18,780 --> 00:44:22,460
by the way. Oh thank you.
I really love the work that he's

558
00:44:22,460 --> 00:44:26,780
doing. He.
He really doesn't like jargon and

559
00:44:26,780 --> 00:44:33,620
labels, and he's really one for
just calling things concretely

560
00:44:33,620 --> 00:44:38,940
and specifically what they are.
He spoke about that boys and

561
00:44:38,940 --> 00:44:42,740
young men have the same needs as
everybody else does.

562
00:44:42,780 --> 00:44:48,900
They want to be seen and known
and recognized for who they are.

563
00:44:49,460 --> 00:44:53,540
Exactly, exactly. Women.
We know that about each other.

564
00:44:53,540 --> 00:44:58,660
We know that need in us.
And I think men need to come

565
00:44:58,660 --> 00:45:04,500
home to that in a real way.
I think that our culture and society

566
00:45:04,540 --> 00:45:09,650
has to offer an environment to
make them feel safe, to be that

567
00:45:09,650 --> 00:45:13,330
way and to show up that way.
Yes, I absolutely agree with you,

568
00:45:13,330 --> 00:45:17,450
but I also do think that we need
male leaders to, like,

569
00:45:17,490 --> 00:45:22,210
metabolize these messages and like
Jackson Katz or Michael Conroy or

570
00:45:22,610 --> 00:45:28,090
Michael Flood or a whole lot of
other people that can talk to men

571
00:45:28,090 --> 00:45:32,930
and can help change the culture.
I don't think it's on women

572
00:45:32,930 --> 00:45:39,250
necessarily. No no no no no.
This is a man's issue to experience

573
00:45:39,250 --> 00:45:44,650
and to solve as well. Yeah.
Although no one will be as happy

574
00:45:44,650 --> 00:45:50,690
and grateful as women for men to
start doing this deconstruction of

575
00:45:50,690 --> 00:45:55,450
patriarchy on masculinity and empower
themselves to be more relational.

576
00:45:55,490 --> 00:46:01,570
In fact, I have another clip from, he
goes by Solid 7 on TikTok, and

577
00:46:01,570 --> 00:46:07,080
she has this great kind of meditation
on like I was not born hating man.

578
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:13,120
But she talks about that her
experiences shaped her,

579
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,600
how she felt about men.
I think in some sense, like she's

580
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:22,120
really holding on to like a love
for men, but so many experiences

581
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:26,480
have beaten it out of her and I.
I so, so relate to that.

582
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,480
It means that I still don't hate men.
There's a difference between

583
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,760
hating them and also feeling
like I need to protect and

584
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,480
defend myself against them.
I don't think you need to hate them,

585
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:44,240
to not want to be around them,
like there is a certain level of fear

586
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:47,960
and awareness I have now that is not
tied to hate. That's too much energy.

587
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,720
What I do need to use my energy
for is to protect myself and

588
00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:53,800
make sure that I'm not over
exerting myself or putting

589
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,800
myself in dangerous situations
to the best of my abilities.

590
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,600
When I am engaging with men and
for short stints of time,

591
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,830
I can enjoy being around them,
but I don't let it lead to hope

592
00:47:05,830 --> 00:47:08,670
anymore at all. Not.
Not in the hope that they will

593
00:47:08,670 --> 00:47:10,910
be a good friend.
Not in the hope that they will

594
00:47:10,910 --> 00:47:13,670
be a good lover.
Not in the hope that they will be a

595
00:47:13,670 --> 00:47:17,190
good short term or long term partner.
I don't have that hope anymore.

596
00:47:17,230 --> 00:47:22,790
That has been crushed and dissolved.
I relate to that too.

597
00:47:22,950 --> 00:47:27,470
Completely. Yeah, completely.
I mean, I've dissented men now for

598
00:47:27,470 --> 00:47:33,150
three years and counting, but at
times, sure, I miss having a good,

599
00:47:33,190 --> 00:47:37,670
healthy man in my life, but for me,
there's no going back now.

600
00:47:37,870 --> 00:47:40,830
Sad to say,
but where you've just given up. Yeah.

601
00:47:40,830 --> 00:47:46,550
Or you make do with the non
partner men you have around you,

602
00:47:46,590 --> 00:47:51,150
which I have many in my life,
whether it's like sports coaches

603
00:47:51,150 --> 00:47:56,350
or workmates or collaborators or
whatever. Yeah, yeah.

604
00:47:56,390 --> 00:48:00,830
That's close enough for me.
Yeah. Yeah.

605
00:48:00,870 --> 00:48:06,700
There's a 4 billion strong
cheering section here on Earth.

606
00:48:06,860 --> 00:48:10,420
Just hoping you guys are gonna
be met.

607
00:48:10,460 --> 00:48:13,220
Men across the world,
the other 4 billion are going to

608
00:48:13,260 --> 00:48:16,100
turn it around and be human with us.

609
00:48:28,460 --> 00:48:36,340
So one interesting part of the
study was that men overwhelmingly

610
00:48:36,340 --> 00:48:41,140
support care policies, meaning
things like paid parental leave,

611
00:48:41,180 --> 00:48:45,020
child tax relief,
subsidized elder and child care.

612
00:48:45,540 --> 00:48:49,980
Like there's an overwhelming
amount of male support for those

613
00:48:49,980 --> 00:48:55,300
type of policies.
And I think that's indicates a

614
00:48:55,300 --> 00:49:01,530
lot that men think deeply about
their children's future and are

615
00:49:02,130 --> 00:49:05,890
occupied with care.
And I think that's a really

616
00:49:05,890 --> 00:49:08,930
positive thing.
Some of the sort of solutions

617
00:49:08,930 --> 00:49:15,170
that women do is suggesting at
the end of their report is to

618
00:49:15,210 --> 00:49:23,250
heed this instinct by men to care
about caregiving and fatherhood,

619
00:49:23,290 --> 00:49:31,410
and that there's a lot that can be
done to make a path for men to take

620
00:49:31,410 --> 00:49:36,130
on a bigger role in caregiving,
whether that is as a father, as a

621
00:49:36,130 --> 00:49:42,930
son, as a partner, or anything else
inside their family or their clan.

622
00:49:43,170 --> 00:49:47,530
That we ease that path,
that we economically and

623
00:49:47,530 --> 00:49:50,810
politically make that possible.
Yes, actually, I was listening

624
00:49:50,810 --> 00:49:54,650
to Melinda French Gates talk
about that on a podcast, too.

625
00:49:54,890 --> 00:49:58,850
We have to stop calling it maternity
leave and just give women time off

626
00:49:58,850 --> 00:50:04,930
that we have to invest in parental
leave, shared parental leave for

627
00:50:04,970 --> 00:50:10,530
that first year that we really are
also acknowledging the having the

628
00:50:10,530 --> 00:50:15,370
man be home and supporting the
family altogether financially,

629
00:50:15,370 --> 00:50:20,250
so that the man and the woman can
be home, will completely change

630
00:50:20,330 --> 00:50:26,690
the dynamics of the fathers role
in the children's lives and ease

631
00:50:26,690 --> 00:50:33,210
things up for the woman who's just
gone through the physical being

632
00:50:33,210 --> 00:50:38,210
pregnant and giving birth again,
just a paradigm shift of switching

633
00:50:38,210 --> 00:50:43,010
the way we think about things,
to say no, this is an investment

634
00:50:43,010 --> 00:50:52,130
into a future generation.
100%, and also make a role with

635
00:50:52,130 --> 00:50:58,600
dignity that is the helpmate of
the mother and as in matriarchal

636
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,960
societies as we know, that isn't
always the biological father.

637
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:07,760
That is often the mother's brother.
I would love to see, like the role

638
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:15,040
of the uncle really get promoted,
or for men to step into helpmate

639
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:21,960
roles that are really important
for bringing up young. 100%.

640
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:26,960
The other thing they mentioned
is supporting young men through

641
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,360
mentorship,
coaching and apprenticeship.

642
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,800
And I think that's kind of like
no brainer.

643
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,080
Yeah, young men need positive
role models, no question.

644
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:39,360
Of good positive role models and
influences. Not bad ones.

645
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,160
If you haven't got that mentor
at home, you can have that

646
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:47,160
outside of the home in a good,
healthy, structured way.

647
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:52,400
Yeah, having an emotional literacy
and brotherhood, building, that kind

648
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:57,830
of connection and communication
for men And we'll definitely put

649
00:51:57,830 --> 00:52:02,950
some links in the show notes to
groups like the Men's Collective,

650
00:52:03,350 --> 00:52:08,390
ReMasculine, Mankind Project, XY Online, just to

651
00:52:08,430 --> 00:52:13,950
name a few resources. Yeah, but.
I have to ask you, other than

652
00:52:13,990 --> 00:52:20,030
positive men influencing young boys.
What are your thoughts on woman only

653
00:52:20,030 --> 00:52:27,310
household raising a feminist son?
Just women raising boys as you say.

654
00:52:27,310 --> 00:52:31,150
If there was like an influence
of a of an uncle or somebody.

655
00:52:31,550 --> 00:52:38,870
Peripheral men, role models,
but not a male household. Yeah.

656
00:52:38,910 --> 00:52:42,070
I mean, I feel a lot of
different ways about this.

657
00:52:42,110 --> 00:52:47,070
I mean, it is absolutely known,
like in traditionally matriarchal

658
00:52:47,070 --> 00:52:52,470
societies, that the males who
have the larger roles in child

659
00:52:52,470 --> 00:52:57,980
rearing and care are the mothers,
brothers Biological connection in

660
00:52:57,980 --> 00:53:01,780
that sounds like in matriarchal
societies, the child belongs to the

661
00:53:01,780 --> 00:53:06,580
mother in matrilineal societies.
And so the brothers are on the

662
00:53:06,580 --> 00:53:11,660
mother's side, so they are the
direct kin connection to the child,

663
00:53:11,660 --> 00:53:16,900
whereas the bio father is just
not considered so vital.

664
00:53:17,020 --> 00:53:19,500
But aside from that,
we live in the patriarchy.

665
00:53:19,500 --> 00:53:22,580
We can't, you know, there's no
escaping in this structure.

666
00:53:22,860 --> 00:53:26,060
The patriarchy is not going to
end in our lifetimes.

667
00:53:26,060 --> 00:53:32,660
So let's say this I think it's a
shame that sons have their

668
00:53:32,660 --> 00:53:38,100
identification and connection with
their mothers severed so early.

669
00:53:38,100 --> 00:53:40,900
That is just something that
happens in patriarchy.

670
00:53:40,980 --> 00:53:44,820
Essentially, the messages they
get is that women are weak,

671
00:53:44,820 --> 00:53:47,620
embarrassing, bad.
Whatever you do,

672
00:53:47,660 --> 00:53:50,140
don't be like a woman.
And of course their mother is a

673
00:53:50,140 --> 00:53:54,930
woman.
So that's severing between mothers

674
00:53:54,930 --> 00:53:59,970
and sons so early in the son's life,
and that he then gets absorbed by

675
00:53:59,970 --> 00:54:06,290
the patriarchy away from his mother
is bad for men. It's traumatizing.

676
00:54:06,330 --> 00:54:09,330
Yeah, it's traumatizing.
And it's bad for boys. Yeah.

677
00:54:09,370 --> 00:54:13,570
Boys need identification with their
mother and intimate connection

678
00:54:13,570 --> 00:54:18,090
with their mother for a long time,
just like girls do. Yeah.

679
00:54:18,330 --> 00:54:23,170
I love Sonora Jha, who wrote the
book How to Raise a Feminist Son.

680
00:54:23,170 --> 00:54:27,050
And she, in her book dedication,
like in the front cover,

681
00:54:27,370 --> 00:54:31,730
she says it's a love story for
feminists who hope to change the

682
00:54:31,730 --> 00:54:36,730
world one boy at a time.
Let's play a clip real quick from

683
00:54:36,730 --> 00:54:41,370
Sonora. Why she wrote the book.
When I had my baby, I, you know,

684
00:54:41,450 --> 00:54:44,650
I was so terrified that he would
grow up to be like the the men

685
00:54:44,650 --> 00:54:48,050
that I had grown up around.
Violent men, um, you know,

686
00:54:48,090 --> 00:54:53,520
men with insecure egos and fragile
egos that I realized I needed

687
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:58,160
him to be a feminist and to see
a woman's place in the world to

688
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:04,920
uphold the full humanity of women.
I love that this is such an important

689
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:11,560
message to mothers of every kind.
Like your connection to your son,

690
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:15,280
your son's connection with you.
Have you heard of the Icelandic

691
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:19,760
Hijali Model? Yeah. Yes.
So there's this basically is a

692
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:27,360
preschool program in Iceland that is
trying to combat sex stereotypes.

693
00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:32,600
Well, that's the key. Key? Yeah.
They do it really early to prevent

694
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:36,320
the children adopting, like these
traditional sex based roles.

695
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:40,080
They separate the boys and girls
throughout the day.

696
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,800
So the boys are all up in one group
and the girls are in another.

697
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:49,080
And the girls are encouraged to show,
like, their physical strength and

698
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:54,270
their boldness and be direct,
teaching them how to be direct,

699
00:55:54,910 --> 00:55:58,550
and they do more physical things
outside and yelling.

700
00:55:58,550 --> 00:56:03,430
And the boys are inside and
they're engage them into like

701
00:56:03,430 --> 00:56:08,870
caring and nurturing activities to
develop their emotional skills.

702
00:56:08,910 --> 00:56:12,510
Why is it that Iceland comes up
with all the good things?

703
00:56:13,990 --> 00:56:19,710
Well, we said that in our Mad Men
episode, we said that Iceland ranks

704
00:56:19,750 --> 00:56:22,550
number one for sex equality, right?
Yeah, well,

705
00:56:22,550 --> 00:56:26,630
this is how you do it worldwide.
So yeah, this program has been

706
00:56:26,630 --> 00:56:30,150
going for 30 years.
They've actually on their website.

707
00:56:30,190 --> 00:56:35,510
They have data on their results that
doing this in preschool helps them,

708
00:56:35,550 --> 00:56:40,830
like the rest of their academic life,
that their reading fluency is higher,

709
00:56:40,910 --> 00:56:45,990
they're scoring higher,
that there's actually less noise in

710
00:56:45,990 --> 00:56:51,470
the classroom and distractions from
the boys through the older grades.

711
00:56:51,470 --> 00:56:56,110
I think again, like as a society,
we need to be looking at this.

712
00:56:56,110 --> 00:57:01,470
We need to adopt some of these
models. 100%.

713
00:57:01,510 --> 00:57:04,270
Yeah,
that is the way forward right there.

714
00:57:04,350 --> 00:57:07,910
And I've always personally
thought teaching mindfulness and

715
00:57:07,910 --> 00:57:13,350
meditation in preschool, in
elementary even teaching compassion.

716
00:57:13,350 --> 00:57:20,390
Honestly if we had K through 12
compassion as a core subject like

717
00:57:20,390 --> 00:57:25,190
math and English and social studies,
I think we would be raising a

718
00:57:25,190 --> 00:57:29,830
different type of generation.
I couldn't agree more.

719
00:57:29,870 --> 00:57:36,590
It's an embodiment approach to
humanity and life in that we're

720
00:57:36,590 --> 00:57:41,150
not separating our brains from
our bodies. It is all one.

721
00:57:41,190 --> 00:57:46,750
Our mindfulness is in the how we
care for our bodies and our

722
00:57:46,750 --> 00:57:51,100
whole neurobiology.
It is something that we all need

723
00:57:51,100 --> 00:57:55,060
to kind of relearn.
If we did that kind of teaching,

724
00:57:55,140 --> 00:57:59,380
it would be addressing the root
cause versus what we're trying to

725
00:57:59,380 --> 00:58:04,780
do right now, which is address the
symptoms of a society. So true.

726
00:58:04,820 --> 00:58:09,340
Well, there's some encouraging
things to think about, and we

727
00:58:09,340 --> 00:58:14,340
would love your input, as always,
to let us know what you think, too.

728
00:58:14,420 --> 00:58:16,980
There's a whole lot more to talk
about.

729
00:58:16,980 --> 00:58:20,540
I feel like we only scratched
the surface of like,

730
00:58:20,660 --> 00:58:24,780
manhood masculinities, manosphere,
like all of the things.

731
00:58:24,820 --> 00:58:28,860
Well, until next November.
Happy international men's day.

732
00:58:29,260 --> 00:58:32,380
Happy international men's day.
All right, bye for now. Bye for.

733
00:58:32,380 --> 00:58:42,420
Now. Yeah. Hi. Hi. Hi.
Thank you for listening to Chat

734
00:58:42,420 --> 00:58:45,300
In The Commons.
We would love to hear from you

735
00:58:45,300 --> 00:58:48,260
about anything we talked about
on this episode.

736
00:58:48,610 --> 00:58:52,970
You can reach us via our social media
on our website: chatinthecommons.com.

737
00:58:53,890 --> 00:58:58,050
You can also find links to all
the resources mentioned in this

738
00:58:58,050 --> 00:59:02,370
episode in the show notes.
If you like what we're doing here,

739
00:59:02,410 --> 00:59:06,970
please share with all your friends.
And the best way to support our work

740
00:59:06,970 --> 00:59:12,090
is to follow us on your podcast app.
Chat In The Commons is produced by

741
00:59:12,130 --> 00:59:17,410
me, Elle Kamihira and Natalie Blundell.
Audio engineering by Jason

742
00:59:17,410 --> 00:59:22,170
Sheelsey at Abridged Audio.
Artwork by Reda Tomingas,

743
00:59:22,570 --> 00:59:27,090
Music by Midnight Door and theme
song by Moushumi.

744
00:59:28,610 --> 00:59:37,250
You got no conscience,
so I'll do it again. And.

745
00:59:40,770 --> 00:59:44,450
I'll do it again and again and again.